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Why India's big cities are becoming unliveable

27 points by vinni2 ago | 31 comments

pkphilip |next [-]

The level of corruption in India is beyond belief - and the issue is not just with the politicians. The general populace itself is extremely corrupt.

It does not help that the dominant religion thinks of truth and morality as extremely subjective.

All of this leads to a very low trust society where each person is only for themselves and their families. So it is not at all surprising that the biggest cities where people live in extremely densely populated clusters turn out to be extremely unlivable places.

vmurthy |root |parent |next [-]

You’ve gone from corruption (which I agree with) to something about dominant religion thinking of truth and morality as subjective ( which is debatable as you have cited nothing - infact seems like it’s your opinion and nothing else) to low trust ( which I agree with). What’s the logical link to cities being unlivable? The article says that mayors and councillors lack powers which is the major problem.

dilawar |root |parent |next [-]

Not sure about the subjective part though I feel that the OP is right.

My experience growing up in India is that we are extremely tolerant of corruption and self aggrandisement. In fact, people speak of envy and admiration of folks working in govt who even takes bribes even to issue death and birth certificate.

The corruption of the profession of teachers and doctors is something I've witnessed myself. In just the last 20 years, no one in my village shows any respect for both of them. Things were very different when I was a kid.

Personally I do believe that ours is a very cynical, low trust and 'corrupt' society. Though southern India is much better than North (especially the Ganges planes).

square_usual |root |parent |next [-]

> Though southern India is much better than North

I grew up in South India and spent a lot of my adulthood in the North, and I don't think the South is much better. It's different in many ways, which makes some people think it's better, but it's just as corrupt and messed up.

dilawar |root |parent [-]

Your politician is as corrupt as any, but people have more trust among each other. It's far easier for women to go out alone, camp outside in the night. It's getter better as you go more south. Not sure about AP/Telangana though!

pkphilip |root |parent |next |previous [-]

Belief systems have consequences. Period.

If you believe that what is wrong for others is right for you (subjective morality), you can find ways to do whatever you want to do irrespective of the negative consequences to others.

Combine this with the idea that people are born poor / disadvantaged because of their sins from the previous birth and now you can justify anything you do to them - including making them work in slave-like conditions.

These types of thinking has consequences that you cannot simply wish away.

Yizahi |root |parent |next |previous [-]

The culture of selfishness, cheating and corruption IS a major factor in making a city unlivable. I've lived for a long time in a city somewhere in between on such scale, here are my observations:

Trash and graffiti are directly proportional to the levels of selfishness of the population. At the extreme point there are those horror videos of rivers covered in trash and trash mountains near residential buildings.

Grassroots organization of building inhabitants into an org which collect fees and is responsible for the building maintenance and cleaning is impossible below certain level of egoism of the citizens.

Disregard for the neighbors leads to the same disregard by the officials and thus abandonment of investing of the public transit. It then degrades or stays at trash tier and everyone tarts buying cars. Those cars are then parked everywhere, completely destroying all lawns near housing and near offices. Sidewalks are blocked by parked cars too.

In some cities egoistic citizens are burning trash for heating (it's cheap) and pollute air for millions living in the city.

Officials work expecting bribes and nothing is done without greasing someone's pocket.

And the list goes on and on. At a certain point just visiting a city populated by the more empathetic people, or at least governed by such, becomes a revelation. Especially if such city is poorer by the numbers, so makes do with less.

polotics |root |parent |next |previous [-]

It's funny I never noticed anything in Hinduism that would claim truth or morality are subjective. Can you list —I don't know— some Upanishad or the Baghavad Gita? I was always under the impression that the Indian mess was a side-effect of centuries of British rule traumatizing society.

pkphilip |root |parent |next [-]

You just have to look at the Hindu scriptures such as Manusmriti, Skanda Purana etc where it is clearly mentioned that what is right/wrong is determined by the caste that you are born into and that it is actually a sin to perform the duties (dharma) of a caste that you aren't born into - which is the crux of the argument that Krishna made to Arjuna in the Bhagwat Gita.

Links: Skanda Purana on the punishments for actions from the previous births - special emphasis on what happens to people who killed or mistreated Brahmins in their previous births.. note that, it doesn't mandate these punishments for killing lower castes.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-skanda-purana/d/...

dartharva |root |parent |next |previous [-]

You'd think so, but things are a LOT worse in the country's rural/sparser spaces in every aspect. Urban citizens are at least mostly self-aware, and high population density in cities has some dampening effect to prevent most of the social bads from going beyond intolerable limits.

It all stems from the general phenomenon of Indians still being stuck in the subsistence mindset - including those who don't need to. This is because 1) unlike the US and Europe, (almost all of) India has never had a nontrivial period of continuous and consistent economic security, and 2) The country has a MASSIVE load of "liability" population of a size ridiculously disproportionate to the "asset" population, despite having the largest youth count in the world.

India is one of the very rare wonder countries that would have fared much better (nonviolently) balkanized.

leosanchez |root |parent |next |previous [-]

> It does not help that the dominant religion thinks of truth and morality as extremely subjective.

Would like to learn more about this.

pkphilip |root |parent [-]

Hinduism has a concept of castes which is determined by the caste of one's parents - so a caste is assigned at birth.

The duties (dharma) that you must perform are tied to your caste and you are discouraged from engaging in tasks assigned to other castes.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/manusmriti-with-the-...

https://eweb.furman.edu/~ateipen/ReligionA45/protected/manus...

For instance, the Brahmins - the highest caste, are the priests and the teachers. They are allowed to perform religious rituals, to study the scriptures etc but lower castes are not allowed to do these things.

Fact is, even now, in many parts of India lower castes may even be stopped from entering temples.

Dalit (lower caste) family fined ₹25,000 after toddler enters temple in Karnataka's Miyapur village https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/temple-entr...

Fined Rs 60,000 for touching idol, Karnataka Dalit (lower caste) family says will only worship Ambedkar now https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/bangalore/fined-rs-...

Coming back to the subject of duties - tasks such as cleaning etc are assigned to the lower castes and the upper castes look down on the lower castes who perform these duties. This may explain why India struggles with hygiene and cleanliness.

Now, apart from the whole subject of duties being tied to a person's caste, Hindu scriptures also prescribe very different punishments for the same crime with the upper castes getting the least punishment.

Also, intermarriage or intermixing between castes is discouraged in the Hindu scriptures.

https://www.egyankosh.ac.in/bitstream/123456789/84766/1/Unit...

https://www.arthistoryproject.com/timeline/the-ancient-world...

Of course, over the years with greater education, more western influence etc, the hold of the caste-based thinking has reduced but it is still quite strong.

square_usual |root |parent |next |previous [-]

> It does not help that the dominant religion thinks of truth and morality as extremely subjective.

This is categorically false.

leosanchez |root |parent [-]

I wish the down voters would explain why you are wrong.

sometimes_all |root |parent [-]

I am assuming that the downvotes are less about the fact that your parent comment is wrong, and more about the fact that the grandparent is not "categorically" false. It has some accurate aspects, but cannot be easily dismissed away.

A lot of accommodation to context (NOT subjectivity) in ethical considerations in many of the Indian epics and religious texts, which a lot of western-oriented viewers who've grown up with more black-and-white mentalities regarding good and bad might view as corruption. Add to that a preference for oral retellings of such topics, and viewpoints start differing regarding the same topic even within the same country. However, deeper readings of the same might tell them that concepts of duty and truth are still paramount, which kind of negate the argument.

It's far easier, however, for critics to think that citizens tend to cherry-pick the arguments in such texts which somehow might justify bad actions, while ignoring the importance of personal duty, honor and search of truth. And thus, it's easier for said critics to blame things on the subjectivity of said religion instead of looking at the context, and call it a day. But there's more to the argument than that; you also need to consider the history of the land, major events, and economic and social patterns which have nothing to do with religion. You also need to consider that some individual states which have the religion as dominant are institutionally much stronger than other weaker states; also, the "extreme subjective morality" part is also prevalent in some other religions, and the countries they dominate are not necessarily corrupt.

square_usual |root |parent [-]

> I am assuming that the downvotes are less about the fact that your parent comment is wrong, and more about the fact that the grandparent is not "categorically" false. It has some accurate aspects, but cannot be easily dismissed away.

First, the parent comment just stated that out as fact without any argument or evidence, so I don't feel the need to provide any of my own to dismiss it. As the old adage goes, claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Then, if it was just that I asserted that the GGP was wrong (which they are, 100%), then the sibling comment asking for more evidence wouldn't also be in the negatives, which it is at the time I write this.

The simpler idea is this: GGP (or someone like them) is just downvoting people calling out their orientalist woo about "[Hiduism] thinks of truth and morality as extremely subjective", which is simply false. The only "strains" of Hinduism that you could even remotely argue have relativistic worldviews are ancient philosophies that are not held by any practicing Hindu today, so even with whatever you're arguing their statement, as written, is categorically false. It's like saying Christianity is a mystical religion because the Gnostics existed.

I'm assuming the rest of your comment is written by AI because it sounds like AI, so I'm not going to bother responding to that.

pkphilip |root |parent |next [-]

I am the one who wrote the initial comment. I haven't downvotted anyone. So the downvotes are from others.

By the way, you claim that I am wrong - but you provide no evidence whatsoever.

My claim is very simple. In Hinduism, dharma is prescribed based on the person's caste and so also the punishments.

Source: https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/manusmriti-with-the-...

Providing a link to Manusmriti as evidence. Before you trash it, saying that the Manusmriti is not relevant - may i point out that people have gone to jail even recently for "disrespecting" the Manusmiriti.

https://www.siasat.com/13-bhu-students-sent-to-jail-over-eve...

leosanchez |root |parent [-]

> Before you trash it, saying that the Manusmriti is not relevant - may i point out that people have gone to jail even recently for "disrespecting" the Manusmiriti.

I haven't met anyone who actually read about Manusmriti. I don't think most Hindus know about what is in it.

Few people few going to jail in one state doesn't make Manusmriti valid. Most states in India have their own language and their own distinct culture.

pkphilip |root |parent [-]

Saying that most Hindus haven't read the Manusmriti is similar to saying that most Muslims haven't read the Shariah law; because the ignorance of the majority doesn't mean that there isn't sufficient support on the ground for its implementation.

Manusmriti was actually included in the Sanskrit curriculum of Delhi university before they were forced to drop it after protests. https://bestcolleges.indiatoday.in/news-detail/delhi-univers...

The central government's national labour policy borrows ideas from the Manusmriti. https://m.thewire.in/article/caste/draft-national-labour-and...

They have the statue of Manu prominently in front of the Rajasthan high court in india. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/demand-f...

And also, the RSS - the ideologues behind the current Indian govt, have expressly stated their support for the Manusmriti. In their magazine Organiser, RSS expressly stated their opposition to the current Indian constitution because it did not include the laws of Manu from the Manusmriti. https://sabrangindia.in/how-rss-denigrated-constitution/

Courts have also quoted Manusmriti in their judgements. https://indiatomorrow.net/2025/12/13/bahraich-court-cites-ma...

Court in Karnataka quotes Manusmriti. https://lawbeat.in/news-updates/will-remain-as-a-scar-karnat...

Even Sai Deepak, a prominent SC advocate and a great friend of the present central government, has opposed criticism of Manusmriti.

sometimes_all |root |parent |previous [-]

> I'm assuming the rest of your comment is written by AI because it sounds like AI, so I'm not going to bother responding to that.

Should I also assume that you're going to just dismiss stuff you do not want to talk about as "written by AI"? Nothing I wrote was AI-generated. I have better stuff to spend AI tokens on than HN comments, of all things.

I also believe that the downvoting people have a bent towards the "orientalist woo", and getting them to put their bias into words and fact/evidenced-based discussion is expecting too much out of smaller minds, but it's not as unfounded as you think it is.

> ancient philosophies that are not held by any practicing Hindu today

You'd be surprised as to how much these ancient philosophies (or whatever translations/strains people ascribe to) still hold fort. I've seen people debating them in Indian management classes, and hold them as closer to fact instead of ancient opinions.

JKCalhoun |root |parent |previous [-]

My Western eyes look worriedly upon India as it may well give us a glimpse of a horrible future awaiting all major cities.

I don't know what the answer is, but good luck, India. We're all hoping you can solve this.

supratims |next |previous [-]

First and foremost majority of people need to agree that there is a problem and it needs solving. Most people living in urban cities are too busy to just survive and fulfil the basic needs, they dont have time to think of pollution, corruption, devolution etc , ironically so. A leading tv news host even said India is already a developed country and when he lands in Mumbai traveling back from London he feels as if he coming from a developing country to a developed country. If majority of educated city dwelling folks now feel there is no problem in India and never challenge the status quo then there is nothing to be improved. Many are happy to just live in the unliveable cities simply thinking its better than their neighbours at the very minimum. Where will the outrage come from.

Secondly, the government does its best to distract people from questioning about such basic issues. They seem to be busy capturing more power and delivering so called growth for the sake of it and very good at advertising every single thing they have done (and yes some progress has been seen in last 20 years). Ever since the current government is in power noone has been allowed to challenge any of their decisions or lack thereof. Also outrage or questioning the authorities is now seen as a anti-national sentiment.

sometimes_all |next |previous [-]

Becoming? They were always unliveable. The difference is that the dysfunction is a lot more visible than before, and even then it was a disaster. The problem is that in India things tend to get very visibly worse before they get _much_ better, and then there are other things that pop up which are also visibly bad; the cycle goes on. It is highly likely of our current problems will get solved in the next 20 years, only to be replaced with other problems of a similar magnitude, and thus the country will keep getting tagged as unlivable even though efforts do get made.

This is primarily because most of the problems have their roots in the very flexible mindset Indians tend to adopt; it's basically the antithesis of the "Deutsche Bahn" issue pointed out in another HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46419970.

qnleigh |next |previous [-]

The air quality issue alone is mind-boggling. The air quality index nominally tops out at 500, corresponding to 'hazardous.' Major Indian cities blow past this threshold on a regular basis in the winter months. In Delhi, poor air quality is responsible for one in seven deaths annually [0]. People born in Delhi now are estimated to lose 8-12 years in life expectancy, depending on the study [1]. This is the norm for now, but it's hard to imagine how much worse things can get.

[0] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/toxicity-15-o...

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-61793884

vunderba |root |parent [-]

I was in India for a wedding a few years back and spent a couple days in New Delhi. I remember stepping out into the 6AM brisk morning air and feeling like I was going to cough up a lung.

It tasted like what I imagine a finely aged glass of acid rain would taste like.

You know how when you open the weather app on your phone, in normal places it says things like: sunny, cloudy, rainy? The weather app just showed SMOKE (this was an actual weather report).

This is partially a result of agricultural burning in the surrounding states which is one of the fastest (and cheapest) ways to clear out the fields for the next crop.

expedition32 |next |previous [-]

Humans have the ability to survive anything. They just won't make it to 70...

But it makes me wonder how they get foreign diplomats to be stationed in Delhi? Westerners don't accept 200+ AQI.

dilawar |root |parent |previous [-]

I think one of the European embassy moved from Delhi to Banglore which has much better air and climate but terrible traffic and garbage issues.

intended |next |previous [-]

Interesting comparison of Mayoral powers between India and China.

Yes, I think it’s highly unlikely the Chief Ministers will devolve powers to mayors.

joemazerino |previous [-]

Becoming?