Astro Hacker News - ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

et1337 |next [-]

This video is a really cool dive into EUV for the uninitiated (me) https://youtu.be/MiUHjLxm3V0?si=kEPSicC2WXYhcQ6L

seanalltogether |root |parent |next [-]

The thing I didn't understand after watching that video was why you need such an exotic solution to produce EUV light. We can make lights no problem in the visible spectrum, we can make xray machines easily enough that every doctors office can afford one, what is it specifically about those wavelengths that are so tricky.

|root |parent |next [-]

zozbot234 |root |parent |next |previous [-]

There is such a thing as X-ray lithography, but it comes with significant challenges that make it not really worth it compared to EUV.

bpavuk |root |parent [-]

I'd like to hear more about these challenges

magicalhippo |root |parent [-]

[delayed]

on_the_train |root |parent |previous [-]

It really is the specific wavelength. Higher or lower is easier. But euv has tricky properties which make it feasible for Lithography (although just barely it you have a look at the optics) but hard to produce with high intensities.

formerly_proven |root |parent |next [-]

Specifically, what makes x-rays easy to generate are these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_X-ray In essence, smashing electrons into atoms allows you to ionize the inner shell of an atom and when an electron drops down from an outer shell, the excess energy is shed as high-energy photons. This constrains the energy range of X-ray tubes ("smash electron into metal") to wavelengths well below 13.5nm.

(These emission lines are also what is being used in x-ray spectroscopy to identify elements)

s0rce |root |parent [-]

You can also generate broad spectrum bremsstrahlung radiation easily, this is widely used for medical X-rays.

YetAnotherNick |root |parent |previous [-]

Any source to this? I am hearing this for the first time.

s0rce |root |parent [-]

ITs easy to make X-rays, you just hit a metal target with electrons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_tube

eddyg |root |parent |next |previous [-]

Or this video, which came out before Veritasium's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2482h_TNwg

Hikikomori |root |parent [-]

https://youtu.be/NGFhc8R_uO4

Or this presentation which came out way long ago.

kristjansson |root |parent [-]

This is worth the (re)watch every time it comes up.

culi |root |parent |next |previous [-]

Here's your link without the surveillance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiUHjLxm3V0

skrebbel |root |parent [-]

With slightly less surveillance

lencastre |root |parent [-]

try duck player

hinkley |root |parent |next |previous [-]

The whole “exploding tiny drops of metal” in the middle of this is just Loony Toons. This machine is literally insane and two of the companies I am long-long on would be completely fucked without it.

patmorgan23 |root |parent |next [-]

You forgot WITH LASERS, and IN A VACUUM

atonse |root |parent |previous [-]

Yes it was crazy when I first heard about it "wait what? they shoot it in mid-air?" and that was before I found out they did that like 30k times a second.

But now 100k times a second apparently. Humans are amazing.

hinkley |root |parent |next [-]

You have a machine that’s basically a clean room inside and one of the parts is essentially electrosputtering tin but then throwing all the tin away and using the EM pulse from the sputter to do work.

Oh and can you build it so it can run hundreds or thousands of hours before being cleaned? Thanks byyyyyyyyeeeeee!

lelandbatey |root |parent [-]

The inside of those machines are far, far cleaner than the inside of any clean room ever entered by a human. They have to be molecularly clean.

b3orn |root |parent [-]

Which isn't easy considering they explode tin droplets in the machine. I think that's the point the other commenter wanted to make.

flowerthoughts |root |parent |previous [-]

> We are going to spray expensive stuff in an extremely fine and precise line. Then we're going to shoot a laser at each droplet.

< Why?!

> To make a better laser.

< Yes, of course you are.

> 100,000 times per second.

< [AFK, buying shares.]

hinkley |root |parent [-]

I have shares in one of their biggest customers, and one of their customer’s biggest customers.

We are quickly leaving the realm of dependent variables still looking anything like diversification.

hinkley |root |parent |previous [-]

Okay this is weird.

> The key advancements in Monday's disclosure involved doubling the number of tin drops to about 100,000 every second, and shaping them into plasma using two smaller laser bursts, as opposed to today's machines that use a single shaping burst.

This is covered in that video. Did they let him leak their Q1 plans?

xnx |next |previous [-]

> The company's researchers have found a way to boost the power of the EUV light source to 1,000 watts from 600 watts now.

> "We see a reasonably clear path toward 1,500 watts, and no fundamental reason why we couldn't get to 2,000 watts."

tromp |next |previous [-]

The light power increase is even more impressive at 67%:

> The company's researchers have found a way to boost the power of the EUV light source to 1,000 watts from 600 watts now.

with more on the horizon:

> We see a reasonably clear path toward 1,500 watts, and no fundamental reason why we couldn't get to 2,000 watts.

throw0101a |next |previous [-]

So how small are individual components (e.g., transistors) nowadays? Presumably there's a lower limit: once you're a few atoms across, it seems that you can't go any smaller (?).

ahazred8ta |root |parent |next [-]

Gates are about 30-50 nm wide, even though they're called '3nm' for marketing reasons.

phkahler |root |parent |next [-]

Metal pitch is 26nm. That means parallel wires can be placed 2 wavelengths apart with 13.5nm light.

penguin_booze |root |parent |previous [-]

Like free range chicken.

kakacik |root |parent [-]

You only need to live in reasonable place for that phrase to have a proper meaning, across whole market from cheapest to most expensive.

whazor |root |parent |next |previous [-]

This is about increasing output per machine via upgrades.

cyptus |root |parent |next |previous [-]

some gates are only 10-14 nm wide, thats about 50 silicon atoms!

ranger_danger |root |parent |previous [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process

hinkley |root |parent |next [-]

I still think we should have gone with average gates per square mm as a new yardstick. It would also make sense to the Numbers Go Up people.

itopaloglu83 |root |parent |previous [-]

It’s going to be quite funny if they can go below 40nm in gate pitch size, because they’ll need to call it 0nm.

dogma1138 |root |parent [-]

They are moving to angstroms, hence 18A for example.

onjectic |next |previous [-]

> SAN DIEGO, California

> to help retain the Dutch company's edge over emerging U.S. and Chinese rivals

Great news, but what a strange attempt to equate the U.S. and China in this and build a narrative. Cymer was founded in San Diego.

petcat |root |parent |next [-]

Yeah it's an interesting angle in the article. The EUV light source technology is completely designed, developed, and manufactured by Cymer in California, which is a US company that ASML acquired in 2013. If export control agreements were not in place then ASML would have never been permitted to acquire Cymer. And if they are not enforced then the US would almost certainly require ASML to sell Cymer back to US ownership, TikTok-style.

The reality is that it's American technology that is used in ASML machines so I don't know why the article tries to frame it like it's a competition.

merb |root |parent |next [-]

Your take is also a bad one. No what asml builds is not American technology. Why asml succeeded is because they got tons of company’s and people to help them advance the technology of the chip industry. Yes it wouldn’t be possible without the Americans. But it would also not be possible without the Europeans, the Koreans, etc… what asml did was basically ask the technology leaders in each field to build their best product so that they can take their parts and assembly this awesome piece of technology.

ahartmetz |root |parent |previous [-]

Which American rival would that be anyway? I have not heard of any.

petcat |root |parent [-]

xLight is the promising new US competitor to Cymer. Lots of funding from the US CHIPS And Science Act. Founded by Dept. of Energy engineers who formerly worked on large-scale X-Ray systems and particle accelerators.

christkv |root |parent |previous [-]

I think the Japanese are also working on potentially competing technology

on_the_train |next |previous [-]

This is a steep increase of power to get out of a vacuum system that is highly sensitive to temperature changes.

pixelsub |previous [-]

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