Hacker News
The Letter S, by Donald Knuth (1980) [pdf]
wolfi1
|next
[-]
svat
|root
|parent
|next
[-]
• He had already published the first editions of Volume 1, 2, 3, and the second edition of Volume 1, by 1973. It was in 1977 when the publishers sent him galley proofs for the second edition of Volume 2, having switched to phototypesetting (away from hot-metal typesetting a la Linotype, though IIRC it was actually Monotype) that he was disappointed with the results. And he had some back-and-forth with them and they did improve their fonts (https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/367133/48), but he was still dissatisfied.
> I didn't know what to do. I had spent 15 years writing those books, but if they were going to look awful I didn't want to write any more.
• At this time he came to know of the existence of digital typesetters. Typesetting with computers had existed before, but it had always seemed a crude toy, rather than something suitable for “real books”. But he saw Patrick Winston's Artificial Intelligence that had been just published (I think he got an early proof copy to review or something), and he realized for the first time that digital typesetting was an option (apparently Winston's book was printed at >1000dpi, and Knuth later got his hands on a machine that claimed a resolution of 5333 dpi: see this wonderful comment from Knuth's student and “right-hand man”, David Fuchs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20009875)
• In fact it was the fonts that he was dissatisfied with rather than the typesetting, so METAFONT was in some sense the primary/motivating project and TeX was only written in order to be able to use METAFONT.
• Actually his first idea was to simply take the old fonts, get high-resolution scans of them (not easy to obtain at that time) and use them directly. He approached Xerox Research Center but:
> I asked if I could use Xerox's lab facilities to create my fonts. The answer was yes, but there was a catch: Xerox insisted on all rights to the use of any fonts that I developed with their equipment. Of course that was their privilege, but such a deal was unacceptable to me: A mathematical formula should never be "owned" by anybody! Mathematics belongs to God.
• So he went home and (after trying a bit with TV cameras) tried projecting photographs of the pages onto the wall and tracing the outlines, and it was while staring at these images that he realized that the shapes of letters were not arbitrary but there was some logic to them (e.g. in the font he was using, the spacing between the vertical strokes in 'm' was equal, and equal to that in 'n'), and he decided (as a computer programmer) to capture this design in code — something that had never before been done. The hardest letter to capture this way is S, hence the paper in the OP.
> Finally, a simple thought struck me. Those letters were designed by people. If I could understand what those people had in their minds when they were drawing the letters, then I could program a computer to carry out the same ideas. Instead of merely copying the form of the letters my new goal was therefore to copy the intelligence underlying that form. I decided to learn what type designers knew, and to teach that knowledge to a computer.
• This is also why METAFONT never really caught on among typographers: as Charles Bigelow (quoted by Richard Southall, https://luc.devroye.org/Southall-METAFONT1986.pdf) observed, “the designer thinks with images, not about images”. Knuth did not want crude “geometric” constructions of letters (as some prior 16th century typographers had attempted: https://www.ams.org/journals/bull/1979-01-02/S0273-0979-1979... and as some typographers only passingly familiar with METAFONT think!). He wanted actual real typographically beautiful shapes, but to be able to generate those shapes with code. This is obviously much harder than simply drawing the shapes using visual intuition, even if it enables variation. (See “The Concept of a Meta-Font”: https://gwern.net/doc/design/typography/1982-knuth.pdf — again, many people in the typography world confuse the abstract concept of a meta-font introduced in this paper with (their incorrect impressions of) the METAFONT program, and omit crediting Knuth for variable fonts).
• The second edition of Volume 2 was not printed with Linotype. Yes the machines still existed in Europe and he talked to typesetters (he mentions in particular a person from Belfast), but it was in fact published using TeX (the first version, TeX77 and MF78). He was still unhappy with the results, though, and spent a few more years learning more about typography and working with people like Bigelow and Hermann Zapf, before the rewrite into the current TeX82 and MF84 (and current version of Computer Modern). I think it's only with the third edition (1997) that he's finally satisfied.
drfuchs
|root
|parent
|next
|previous
[-]
goolz
|root
|parent
|next
|previous
[-]
WillAdams
|root
|parent
[-]
WillAdams
|root
|parent
|next
|previous
[-]
golem14
|root
|parent
|previous
[-]
andyferris
|root
|parent
[-]
fragmede
|root
|parent
|next
[-]
ChrisMarshallNY
|root
|parent
|previous
[-]
throw0101a
|root
|parent
[-]
I have not heard if Butterfield has started a third company to develop a video game.
fraserphysics
|next
|previous
[-]
WillAdams
|next
|previous
[-]
>Why don't you make them _S_ shaped?
To some degree, this problem was eventually solved, c.f., the five volume set _Computers and Typesetting_:
https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/abcde.html
but then one had the effort to create a new typeface set for math equations by the AMS, eventually named Euler as written up in "AMS Euler — a new typeface for mathematics". _Scholarly Publishing_ and so forth, but arguably, things went awry in that rather than capture the ductus of Prof. Zapf's pen, and model based on that stroke and a pen shape, the expedient approach of simply modeling the outline was arrived at and implemented due to the difficulty and lengthy time required for the idealized approach.
Another consideration may have been that there doesn't seem to be an available algorithm which is robust and accurate and automatic for determining the curves which describe the union of arbitrary Bézier curves (some projects get around this by making high resolution pixel images and tracing them).
dhosek
|root
|parent
[-]
⸻
1. Funnily enough this is the second time in two days that I’ve shared this article, albeit in different contexts.
2. As far as I know, although I could be wrong.
zvr
|root
|parent
|next
[-]
Surely Karow's Ikarus was earlier than that.
One of the main innovations of Metafont was the use of "pen"s, so that one would describe a single path and the software would trace it and imitate the use of one or more pens, to end with an outline of something with thickness, and essentially more curves. It mimics how drawing and writing actually happens.
AFAIK, Zapf did not like this approach at all, as he was used to design typefaces the traditional way, by specifying all the curves. Richard Southall embraced the new paradigm and used Metafont as it was supposed to be used, but produced only a couple of demo typefaces (mainly the nmt family) and a handful of commercial ones (I can now only remember Colorado, with Ladislas Mandel, used in the phone directories of US West). I think he also implemented Melior, but of course this was never distributed as it was a proprietary Zapf design.
Note: all the above are based on recollections of my discussions with Zapf, Southall, and Knuth, in the distant past. All my relevant printed materials are in a different country right now, and I don't have easy access to them.
WillAdams
|root
|parent
[-]
_TeX and METAFONT_ (the book) was published in 1979 (I still vividly remember checking a copy out of the local college library as a high school student in 1983) having its initial release in 1978, after being precipitated by the infamous second edition galley proofs on TAoCP 30 March 1977.
WillAdams
|root
|parent
|previous
[-]
Didn't mean for my post to come across as cavalier --- it's a _very_ tough row to hoe, and even now, I don't think that there are good solutions in this space (but I haven't checked for a while, been out of the typography scene for a while now --- I'd love to be wrong). Ironically, my current project
https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview
is circling back to the underpinnings of this sort of thing (I need to make a single stroke font so as to make it easier to set text in CNC projects) and I'm hoping to approach this from the bottom up and eventually arrive at a visual and interactive version of METAFONT/POST which will also work as a general-purpose drawing program (so that I'll have one to use when I can no longer use Freehand/MX) --- hopefully that will then allow me to finish a compleat digital version of Warren Chappell's typeface designs as we discussed peripherally ages ago.
tobr
|next
|previous
[-]
Fig 9 stood out to me as obviously wrong. The two glyphs on the left are pixel by pixel identical, as are the three middle ones, and the two on the right. Quite mysterious though considering this PDF appears to be a scan.
hairywalt
|root
|parent
[-]
https://www.dkriesel.com/en/blog/2013/0802_xerox-workcentres...
NiloCK
|next
|previous
[-]
Having models attempt an SVG letter S remains one of my personal/informal LLM benchmarks. They are still pretty bad at it.
bombcar
|next
|previous
[-]
jll29
|root
|parent
|next
[-]
Thanks for giving us beautiful layout and better-looking fonts. Every time I write a new paper when I press "compile" in Overleaf I'm greatful that he made our work more beautiful, and it motivates me to make the content matter, too.
adm4
|next
|previous
[-]
bananaflag
|next
|previous
[-]
antonvs
|root
|parent
[-]
This results in a more complex and less obvious mathematical definition.
Also, a naively symmetrical "S" tends not to look good, probably because of these same issues, so needs further adjustment to match our visual expectations. This complicates the definition further.
noufalibrahim
|root
|parent
|next
[-]
This is all fine. What fascinates me with Knuth's work is how he applies mathematical rigour to concepts like these which are generally considered "artistic" and subjective. It underlines how mathematical ideas of symmetry etc. play a role in making the world we live in beautiful.