Astro Hacker News - The anxiety of the perfect loaf: the illusion of culinary precision

cogman10 |next [-]

> Viewed through this lens, the modern illusion of control shatters, but something much more liberating takes its place. The recipe is a suggestion. The rules of baking — baker’s percentages, hydration levels, the established ratio of flour-to-water-to-fat — are the underlying framework. This is the scaffolding.

Look, the author isn't technically wrong. But also, I have to point out that the reason for all the control and preciseness is replicability.

If you measure out everything by gram, mix/kneed for the right amount of time, set the temperature the the right number, and bake for the right amount of time, you'll get the same loaf, texture, everything, every single time.

That's why we have modern store bread loafs. That's why all bakeries aren't using more "artistic" methods of intuiting the amount of ingredients.

So long as you can accept that by doing thing by feel you'll end up with loaves that are rocks, crumbs, or dough balls. That are overcooked or undercooked. Then yeah, you can intuit as much as you like. Sometimes you'll get something good. You'll even get better at it till you usually get something good.

dredmorbius |root |parent |next [-]

Reproducibility requires more than just measuring ingredients, however, as other characteristics can greatly change results. Leaven viability, flour moisture content, relative humidity, ambient temperature, and accidents of a home-baker's process (did you get interrupted by a child / work / partner / household exigency during your dough prep or bake) all have pretty sharp impacts on results.

Precise reproducibility requires not just monitoring ingredients, but overall environment, dough response, and more.

Or ... you can roll with it as an amateur (both in the "nonprofessional" and "for the love of it" senses), recognise that every bake is its own experiment, measure what you can, but allow for variation. I've been baking bread for about six years now. Results vary, many look great, and all but a very few taste amazing, even where I go far out of nominal parameters.

Biggest goof to date was omitting salt from a batch. (Salting the finished product ... recovered mostly.) Otherwise I've survived odd assortments of flours, accelerated or extended prooving cycles, high- or low-temperature ovens, different cookware, and more. Bread is just really freaking resilient stuff, and so long as you're not planning on hitting the same spot every time, have fun with it, and learn, in the spirit of TFA.

PaulDavisThe1st |root |parent [-]

Also, elevation: lower air pressure creates shorter rise times. Us high altitude bakers have to constantly take this into account (more for things like bread, less for "chemical rises" based on baking soda etc. etc.)

IAmBroom |root |parent [-]

We're discussing variation by a single cook. Obviously elevation matters, but noting the correction just once ensures consistent product for a lifetime.

dredmorbius |root |parent [-]

This might conceivably vary according to local geology, though other considerations might tend to dominate in that case.

Or if your kitchen is installed in one of the elevators of the Burj Khalifa.

;-)

rendaw |root |parent |next |previous [-]

It's more than just reproducing the standard flavor. By not measuring sometimes you'll get something very good, but because you didn't measure anything you won't know what you did that caused it to be good and won't be able to do it again.

Measuring doesn't preclude experimentation. You should copy your recipe, mark what changes you plan to make, then try it. If it works, you have a record. If it doesn't work, you can add a memo to know not to try that again.

wiredfool |root |parent |next |previous [-]

The whole obsession about measuring giving exact hydration percentages is strange to me.

Assume you have 100g of flour at equilibrium 20% ambient humidity, and the same 100g of flour at 80% humidity.

I don’t know how different the effective moisture content would be, but measuring the weight of the flour to the gram seems like you’re including the moisture in the weight of the flour. Maybe one packs denser on a scoop. I don’t know. But I don’t necessarily think it’s more accurate.

On the other hand, it’s really easy to just pour in 540g of flour, mix in a shy tablespoon of salt, 280g of water, and a good glop of starter. Far easier than trying to get consistent scoops or measure to the meniscus in a liquid measured.

derbOac |root |parent [-]

I measure by mass when I bake, but I've always had the same questions as you (about humidity, for example). That was always the answer I got when discussing volume versus mass measurements — that volume can change due to all sorts of things — but it always seemed to me that mass could change for the same reasons.

I eventually decided mass measurements are most useful when the amount you need in mass is fairly small relative to the volume of the particles of the thing you're measuring. Measuring a small volume of nuts can be tricky, for example, because the nuts are different sizes and shapes, but mass is fairly consistent.

Measurement with baking in general is conducive to replicability assuming the same conditions are met. That is, that you're in the same bakery, with the same oven, same flour, and so forth. It becomes less reliable as you start changing variables.

This is pretty obvious even with flour: two bread flours can absorb really different amounts of water, so you almost have to be aware of texture and so forth. What you want to achieve in a recipe is a certain outcome, in dough characteristics and final loaf. How you get there can be informed by a bunch of things but is never guaranteed unless everything is the same every time.

PaulDavisThe1st |root |parent [-]

Volume changes easily with differences in your manual technique (and to some degree and for some things, storage conditions).

Mass will only change based on things not related to your in-the-moment technique (e.g. humidity).

Finnucane |root |parent |next |previous [-]

I worked at a culinary school for a while. In the bread kitchen they taught you the formula stuff, but also, to recognize what the dough would feel like, look like, even taste like, when it was right. They taught you how to adapt if the flour was a little drier today than yesterday, if the kitchen was a little more humid.

IAmBroom |root |parent [-]

Yes, 95-99% of bread's mass is a strongly hydrophilic raw material, and the percentage of water in the precooked product is vital to the outcome. It's obvious the best one can do is to get the dough into the general vicinity of "good enough", and then adjust by other indicators.

bsder |root |parent |previous [-]

> You'll even get better at it till you usually get something good.

This is the crux.

Sure, if I bake a loaf of odd bread every couple of days, I will EVENTUALLY get good enough to produce something good rather than just edible. After how long? A week? A month? A YEAR?

So, in the interim, I am WASTING those ingredients and my time.

I liken this to knife sharpening. Sure, EVENTUALLY you will get the feel for sharpening on whetstones and then sharpening your kitchen knives is quick and straightforward. But how many times will it take--especially if you have no mentor to teach you? Alternatively, you can get a fixed-angle sharpener and have sharp kitchen knives tonight.

throwaway173738 |root |parent |next [-]

What’s cool about sharpening knives is it teaches you how to sharpen all kinds of stuff. For example I’m building a fence and I have to cut some roots in the posthole using my San Angelo bar. The chisel is dull because I’ve been using it to break up concreted rock. So I grab a file and put a little edge back on it.

IAmBroom |root |parent |previous [-]

Off-topic: what finally allowed me to gain the ability for high sharpening on a whetstone was watching a YT video of a master at the craft who worked slowly [0].

He wasn't one of those chefs doing the whoosh-whoosh-whoosh and it's sharp off a hone, nor even on the stone. He stared and concentrated and carefully made each pass.

That leads to a lot of idiocy out there. I've twice handed knives to (amateur) others only to find them duller after "sharpening" than before. One had a hone; the other had a diamond-grit stone.

The muscle memory to keep your edge at the same angle through the draw along a curved knife face takes a looooong time to perfect. He didn't trust in it; he always watched and moved with care.

Once I accepted that as the end goal, I too could get knives that routinely shaved paper.

[0]: OUTDOORS55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pagPuiuA9cY

FinnLobsien |next |previous [-]

I agree with this take. If we think back to the origins of cooking and food preparation, it was never about exact measures or precise ingredients.

The point of a ratatouille is not that it has precisely bell pepper, eggplant, tomato, and zucchini. It’s that it’s a stew of summer vegetables, and the point should be to figure out what the summer vegetables are for you.

We live in a world where we can buy summer vegetables in January (imported from across the world), so we don’t have to deal with those limitations.

I think it’s a fool’s errand to determine the precisely correct formula for the correct (tm) way of making x, y, or z.

This might be different if you work in a Michelin-starred restaurant or get a kick out of the scientific method.

But if you cook at home, the point is to make delicious things for the people you love.

hackingonempty |next |previous [-]

Sure, a simple enriched bread like challah you can go by feel but you're going to have a lot more trouble succeeding with sourdough panettone without a tested recipe exactly because it is a living organism.

Of particular importance are the ratios of starter-flour-water when refreshing your culture (thrice daily! then bundling or floating for overnight storage...) It influences the ratio of Saccharomyces to Lactobacillus which has an effect on the pH of your dough after the first or second fermentation. If pH goes too low the gluten will dissolve and your dough will disintegrate when you try to knead in more ingredients.

One of the USA panettone masters, Roy Shvartzapel, insists you need a pH meter to be successful but after flailing around with one I found copying the refresh ratios of one of the Italian masters to do the trick. Unfortunately, refreshing is usually not part of published recipes!

ojkelly |next |previous [-]

I bake all my own bread, mostly due to food allergies but also because there is nothing better than a fresh loaf of bread just out of the oven.

My experience and conclusion was largely the same as the author. I found the brevity of many recipes frustrating, which led me to study the details of bread making.

The type of four, how much yeast, salt and water. How the water amount varies for so many reasons in a home kitchen.

Making 4 loafs a fortnight gives plenty of opportunity for iteration and learning. And over time I was able to develop a good understanding of dough hydration and how that affects the end product, and how it can make kneading and handling the dough easier or harder. There is a sweet spot.

This also led me to adding oil to a dough. Which acts to keep the gluten chains from getting too long and chewy, thus making the dough short.

It’s also how you make a great pizza dough.

From there I started experimenting with different flours, because I had to if I wanted bread. Running low on bread flour I added semolina, and also made a pure semolina loaf.

The main thing I’ve learned is there is a lot of leeway in the recipes that still produces tasty food. I’ve made some incredible and some woeful loafs that all taste great.

I still prefer specific recipes in metric, but I find more and more I’m reading into what the ratio of ingredients is doing and why.

Animats |next |previous [-]

Of course, bakery products like that are really made on production lines like this.[1] There's a whole industry for artisanal bread making machinery.

Machinery for fancy twisted form factors is available. Here's the Fritsch Multitwist.[2] That seems to be more of a European thing. Although it can be configured to make big pretzels.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkfnFpOEEvU

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xVNK_XRkxM

Cider9986 |next |previous [-]

Related: The Bread Code

https://github.com/hendricius/the-sourdough-framework

3.6k stars

This guy and book is great. Idk if he invented it but he might have popularized using low hydration or high hydration starter to change the flavor of your sourdough.

The idea I remember is that lower hydration starter gives you yogurty flavor and high gives you more sour.

garrickvanburen |next |previous [-]

“In the end, if I’m successful, I’ll have this one bread recipe adapted/developed, and if written out comprehensively for someone else (even future me), it will likely be >4 pages.”

https://garrickvanburen.com/only-finding-the-non-obvious-mat...

heisenbit |next |previous [-]

Reproducibly through measurements has a lot of value if you do not have a coach like the author for his mother. Yes a lot of recipes can be handed down but the space of recipes is so much larger. We don‘t need books as we can tell stories and this bring out the feel so much better is true but where would we be without the encyclopedia.

BiraIgnacio |next |previous [-]

I eat a lot of bread and I make a lot of bread because of that.

Precision measure and mixing and timing helped me a lot in the beginning.

Though I still do that, I find that now I can rely on feel (experience if I'm honest) to know when the dough is just right.

Like with everything, there's probably a middle ground there but I think I just like having fun pretending I'm on a chem lab :)

dvh |next |previous [-]

Speaking of loafs and culinary precision, from my father's side they always used single cut even to get half of loaf, I used 2 cuts when I wanted half loaf and that annoyed them because when they wanted full loaf after me, they first had to remove my remaining half loaf. How do you cut your bread, single cut (wedge) or double cut?

IAmBroom |root |parent [-]

What??? Can someone translate this?

Insanity |previous [-]

If there are these places on the internet the article mentions which perfect bread ingredients “to the gram”, someone should share that with American bakeries.

It’s near impossible to find decent bread, compared to EU countries like France/Belgium/Germany. :(

throwaway219450 |root |parent |next [-]

I’ve always found King Arthur to be reliable? Their recipes are good and include metric, you can get the flour anywhere and they’re very proactive with support if you have questions about tweaking. Also good books.

Good bread exists, it’s just not cheap like it is in Europe.

nkrisc |root |parent |next [-]

King Arthur recipes are good in my limited home baking experience. As long as you remain somewhat near to it, you’ll get something edible.

I’ve found though for things like hydration or proofing times your environment is going to have a noticeable impact on that.

King Arthur recipes are written with their products in mind, so if you’re using other flour make sure to check the protein content and that it matches! I’ve made that mistake before when I had consistently bad results and realized the flour I had was quite a bit lower in protein content despite having the same general “all purpose” moniker.

dredmorbius |root |parent [-]

KA do make specific bread flours (high-gluten / high-protein), so that if you're used to those a GP or pastry flour will yield far less gluten development.

That said, I've used a cheap bleached white AP flour when that's all that's available and had ... quite good results. My preference is bread flours, and generally at least some whole wheat in the mix.

mauvehaus |root |parent |previous [-]

King Arthur has classes in Norwich, VT! Come and take some! My partner got me a pretzel making class a couple years ago, and it has made baking soft pretzels a treat.

Boston Logan is probably your closest truly useful airport, and the Dartmouth Coach goes direct from there to Hanover.

dredmorbius |root |parent |next |previous [-]

I think you'll find two things are true about American bulk baked goods:

- The quality is highly uniform.

- The quality is highly bland.

As with any mass-produced food, the goals are typically quantity and low cost, though often with a putative appearance of quality or artisanal character. The compromises are largely against a high-quality product, though there are places where this may be found, albeit at far higher prices.

Of you may bake your own.

cogman10 |root |parent |next |previous [-]

The american pallet is simply different and all our breads tend to be sweeter. The other part of this is that amercian breads tend to only use 1 grain, wheat. And they tend to either use whole wheat or bleached wheat.

Even when something is a "9 grain" bread, usually what that actually means is it's wheat bread with other grains in the crust.

Very hard to find a rye bread in the US.

|root |parent |next |previous [-]

socalgal2 |root |parent |next |previous [-]

not disagreeing, the US certainly doesn't have the variety of France/Belgium/Germany, and the average is certainly much worse.

But, there are local bakeries here and there and many of them seem to make pretty good breads? Maybe I don't know what you're specifically looking for though. I'm in LA at the moment and I can be both frustrated with the average but still find some good stuff.

SubmarineClub |root |parent [-]

> I’m in LA

Oh gee, who’d imagine you’d be able to find a decent baker in in LA?

Always hilarious how people in LA/NYC assume that obviously the experience of living in one of the largest cities in the country applies to the whole of the country.

doublepg23 |root |parent |next |previous [-]

I enjoy a local Pittsburgh bakery Mancini's. That's my benchmark for "good bread", I've never been to Europe though.

wiredfool |root |parent |previous [-]

Eh, I found the Seattle artisanal bakeries (Fremont, Grand Central) to be better than all but the best I’ve found in Europe.

derbOac |root |parent [-]

Yeah there are a lot of great bakeries in the US; you just need to know where they are.

wiredfool |root |parent [-]

And there are a lot of middling bakeries in Europe.

Haven't spent much time in Belgium, but I was disappointed in the average quality of the bread in small bakeries in France. There was one awesome organic bakery in Paris near the catacombs tour, and one hypermarche (forget where) that somehow had an absolutely incredible rustic baguette. But the little shops in towns, eh. And most of the hypermarches. Germany is also kind of average, the Reve bakeries are reliably on the good side of middling, but nothing that I'd consider incredible.