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Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It
vintermann
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How certain is that really? I read a very niche, but very well researched book about local violin makers in my region, and there were hundreds, and that "didn't include the ones who merely made one or two fiddles as a project" according to the authors. All the people they listed did it as a side gig to their farming.
People here had time they couldn't just sink into doing more farming and fishing. All primary industries have natural downtime. They very often spent that on specializing, often into useful things like cobbling, shipbuilding or carpentry, but also into less immediately useful things like making musical instruments or elaborate altar pieces for the churches. So what makes blacksmithing so special a guy who learned it would never "go back to a farm"?
Someone
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- running a forge isn’t something you can do alone (even if lighting a forge and doing the blacksmithing is doable for a single person, you still have to get the fuel for the forge, which typically is charcoal, coal, or coke)
- running a forge isn’t something you do in small pieces of natural downtime. Once you fire up a hearth, you’re committed to using it for the entire day.
manofmanysmiles
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sklargh
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ggm
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jjk166
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On the other hand the adversary stands to gain a lot from pillaging your countryside, both gaining wealth from the loot they capture and security by knocking you out as a potential threat. In the most extreme case they may be looking at exterminating you entirely and taking your land and everything in it for themselves. They may be facing starvation and death if they don't take your resources from you. You fundamentally can't offer them more than they could potentially take. It is rational for them to accept less treasure for sufficiently reduced risk, but there is no guarantee you can offer enough that fighting for the rest isn't worth it in their eyes. Paying them to attack someone else is even harder - they still do not reap the full benefits of defeating you, but they still suffer the risk of fighting, and they have an additional enemy to boot. If they do manage to go for that option, you're almost certainly losing a potential ally (the enemy of your enemy is your friend) and whoever wins that conflict is going to be pretty pissed at you.
On top of this, paying your own people to fight for you strengthens your side. Yes war may not be the optimal use of resources but those dollars are flowing right back into your economy feeding your people, employing your smiths, etc. The strong army you raise both deters potential adversaries and can be used to extract demands from neighbors. Conversely, paying tribute to the adversary makes them stronger - they can afford more men, better weapons, deeper war chests. You may buy yourself time but the fundamental grievances that made war possible in the first place have gone unaddressed; it is reasonable to expect you will wind up in the same situation again at some point, but the next time it will be more expensive to bribe them while you will have less money to raise an army for yourself. You can't repeat this cycle too many times.
All this assumes your adversary is rational. Unfortunately that's not a safe assumption. For the right price you'll be able to raise an army, but whether it be a holy crusade or a fight for freedom or a face launching a thousand ships, a particular army might be fighting for something they consider priceless.
ggm
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My point is that history records ancient states with surplus, paying off invaders. Success is highly conditional to time. Most people here think if in 10 years they own you it failed.
I tend to think if you held power for 10 years you won.
constantius
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History is littered with examples of states choosing to pay off their would-be attackers, and seeing it as success or failure depends on your priors.
Byzantium was especially adept at this, for centuries, and they did fine for a millenium, but more often than not it was seen as a temporary, last resort measure, with large downsides, and generally to avoid creating a new front while a more critical war was being waged elsewhere.
By paying off your enemies, you strengthen their armies, you give them an incentive to ask for more and more each year (because they know you wouldn't have paid if you weren't weak), as a rule they will regularly pillage your countryside to encourage you to pay, and they will mostly use the money you pay them as investment to launch attacks against you at the first opportunity.
For Byzantium, this was the case with Arabs, Bulgarians, Crusaders, etc., and over time it led to ruin. Though it also led to overall great outcomes with Armenians and Iberians, who became vassal states.
jjk166
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fragmede
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jjk166
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mr_toad
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jjk166
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kingofmen
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Aside from all questions about how such an agreement is to be enforced once you no longer have the money but the invaders still have their weapons, the article shows very clearly that this is not true. Early states are seriously cash-strapped, and rarely pay their armies in easily portable goods. They can "afford" to raise armies consisting of soldiers who bring their own weapons and, by-and-large, their own food. That does not make for good tribute and so, in fact, they cannot afford to pay off an invader.
ggm
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The Danegeld lasted over 150 years. It undoubtedly failed in the end, but it certainly worked in the short to medium term.
The Sassanid and Byzantines paid off each other for ages. The persians paid tribute for a long time to border states.
The pre-french kings paid off The tribes who eventually became the Normans.
It's a shit long term strategy. Doesn't mean it didn't work in the short term for the states using it.
Remember, these tributes were clearly liquid cash, or equivalent. When they ran out of money it seems to turn into land. The implication they could NOT have been used to raise forces internally begs questions. The counter argument I suggest is that you raise an army (that you don't have to pay) when you CANNOT pay off the other side, or don't want to cede land.
Perhaps where we meet is that history records states doing it but it didn't work in the medium-to-long term. Did it happen? Yes. Did it work? "no" for a long term view but the immediate effect, for some period of time? Depends how you view it.
The same might be said for the condottieri. Groups like the English "white company" in the extended wars of europe in the middle ages. Paying them to switch sides might be more effective than putting up your own guys to fight them.
[Edit: I invite people to think about the average lifespan in role of ancient leaders, and what a decade or a hundred years means for "success" or "failure" against those measures. Bear in mind that most modern democratic states operate on a change of leadership in a 4 to 6 year timescale, with some cycling much faster and some cycling much slower, and it is rare for a successor leader to entirely endorse his predecessors choices. Now cast that into pre democratic times and ask yourself what success looks like.]
teruakohatu
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> The pre-french kings paid off The tribes who eventually became the Normans.
Probably the worst decision any French leader, possibly any European leader, ever made. It could be argued that this lead to at least 600 years of pain until the Normans aristocracy (now English) gave up trying to take France.
pyrale
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You're rewriting history here. "The normans" were completely integrated in the French aristocracy, and that's why the kings of England took part in the successoral struggle. The 100 year war was started by the grandson of Philippe IV, of the french Capet dynasty, fighting against a nephew of Philippe IV for legitimate motives. Other cousins fighting it out included the dukes of burgundy, the house of Anjou-Sicily, etc.
If anything, a few normans lords marrying into the Capet family was just a little gene refill to stave off inbreeding.
teruakohatu
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The Norse raiders were given land and in exchange they would stop raiding. Paying off the aggressors.
These Norse became known as the Normans, took the English crown only a few generations after settling and then claimed the French crown.
Taking England gave them enough power to war with France for hundreds of years.
Paying off raiders, time and time again, cost France and never ended the threat. William The Conqueror’s descendants didn’t stop claiming France until around 1800.
But I totally do give you that by the 100 year war they were now English not Norse.
But in the modern West we have a very short 24 hour attention span. In other cultures and other time periods people had long memories. I could imagine Rollo telling his son to finish what his ancestors started. And eventually William telling his sons.
That’s my perspective.
red_admiral
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(Curious how the whole Hormuz situation will turn out.)
penteract
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Once you have paid him the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane.
ggm
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moondrek
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enaaem
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In a violent world we actually see the opposite: people become hyper violent when threatened or even when someone disrespects their honour. It seems irrational, but the fact that we see this behaviour consistently in violent environments means it is evolutionary stable.