Hacker News
Andy Pavlo joins ClickHouse to establish ClickHouse Labs
a34729t
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So what does this mean for ingestion (and indexing)? Iceberg V3? Paimon? Bespoke ingestion through the DB engine to do the indexing?
jimmyl02
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I assume the native formats will always be faster / more optimized but the need for Trino as a separate executor while running either of these databases seems to be close to gone.
a34729t
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Native format is faster (especially for colocated joins), but it's way more expensive if you have to run a bunch of separate storage nodes vs just using S3, especially your query volume isn't that high.
I liken it to the BigQuery cost model, where storage is effectively free.
efromvt
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remywang
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tomsanbear
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apavlo
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AbbeFaria
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With that, I was able to get the interview although I ended up failing it. My lack of experience in C++ was probably one of the main reasons. Your course helped me stand my own during the interview and even though I had zero database experience apart from finishing the course, I felt adequately prepared.
Thank you for making the course open source. As a working professional, it was helpful to be able to do the course on my own time. Suffice to say, I am a big fan of your work and thank you for introducing me (and other fellow learners) to the interesting world of Databases!
danlark1
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gavinray
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Congrats Andy, hope you enjoy the ride =)
adrianco
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throwaw12
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Tostino
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Best of luck!
pphysch
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This is cool, though bittersweet that the public research infrastructure (universities) is not really configured to support this kind of high-impact research any more.
Ar-Curunir
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Also keep in mind that the part you quoted is partially marketing copy.
bootwoot
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kenferry
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It's a good thing when industry is a competitively attractive environment for research, which is how I read this.
sghiassy
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Whatever floats your boat. Sounds like you just work as an engineer at a db company
lumost
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A "research" arm is exactly this license, although it comes at the cost of potentially killing innovation in the rest of the company.
ForHackernews
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Deep tech includes things like nuclear fusion, solid state batteries, quantum computers. I know everyone wants to feel cool, but just because your new javascript framework will be in beta for the next ten years doesn't make it "deep tech".
jandrewrogers
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Just the fact that increasing the generality, scalability, and performance of databases asymptotically converges on designing AGI suggests that it is, in fact, "deep tech". And this property has to mesh with other practical constraints on database behavior. Many problems in databases are hard with little forward progress in decades.
It is true that most database research is not deep tech but there is ample room for it to be if one is sufficiently ambitious.
andriy_koval
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bedman12345
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jandrewrogers
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Ideally a table should be index-organized across all relevant columns. No public system works anything like this. We don't have single indexing structures that work for a collection of arbitrary types each with possibly unpredictable distributions, never mind ones that mix temporal, geometric, and other difficult types. The AI-complete nature of indexing becomes evident when you dig into this. Downstream from this is an implication of extremely granular and adaptive storage management that current storage engines aren't designed for.
Tractable cache replacement algorithms are broken for many workloads and data models. These algorithms need to be very fast for search, update, and eviction selection but they are also AI-complete; improvements to generality have impractically high computational cost. Storage growth is decoupled from RAM availability thanks to disaggregation, aggravating the problem even for workloads that worked well under tractable cache replacement. In theory we know that cache admission (read: fancy latency-hiding schedules) is more robust and scales better but is so difficult to implement in non-trivial real systems that I don't think anyone has figured out how to reduce that concept to practice yet.
At exabyte scales, conventional database internals have embedded assumptions that no longer hold true. For example, you cannot guarantee even "small" internal control structures are resident in memory. What used to be fairly boring internals bits in databases suddenly have to be redesigned from first principles. This is more applied than theoretical but it suggests a major change in the way we do internal architecture.
Traditionally we've treated spatial and temporal locality as architecturally separate concerns. This is extremely convenient from a building real systems standpoint. Optimizing either one in isolation is adversarial to the efficiency of the other, which becomes increasingly visible as you scale up. Converging these concerns into a single "thing" almost certainly has solving the above problems as a prerequisite. If you squint, you can kind of see this as the last step before databases become literal AI.
All of these have really broad scope. If we could solve even half of these open research problems the resulting database engines would be unrecognizable. There are ton of other narrower interesting research problems around data layouts, compression, join parallelism, etc that still have potential for substantial improvement.
It is a great time to be doing database research, we've barely scratched the surface.
lumost
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Are there re-usable query primitives for extremely large scale multi-modal data? how do you scale such queries or make them efficient?
The list goes on.
mamcx
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And I bet DB engines can go far than normal OS.
You don't know how much is still waiting for somebody to try, and how much is not applied. And how many of that DBs are not even doing, because all are constrained be being "apps" with so poor interface (sql).
Fun fact: Not exist a viable true relational DBs implemented, neither exist one with a viable programming language AND apis that is for developers.
ZERO.
ForHackernews
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but that's not what this term has historically meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_tech
> Deep tech innovations are often radical and may create new markets or disrupt existing ones. Deep tech companies often address big societal and environmental challenges and have potential to impact everyday life. Silicon chips are an example of innovation that enabled calculation at previously unimaginable speed and scale.
Database research is good, important, critical, even! But it's not creating something new that has never existed before. It's not inventing the transistor or the integrated circuit.
lumost
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fg137
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The dude doesn't know anything about databases.
ForHackernews
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However, the commenter I was responding to apparently considers just about _any_ research in any significant field to be deep tech so w/e I give up and I'll go update my CV to include the phrase "deep tech research"
apavlo
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ForHackernews
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I'm partly kidding; there's plenty of space for innovation in databases. You should sponsor https://sled.rs/
jandrewrogers
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This is essential for a company that wants to stay on the frontier of database tech.
astrange
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Performance is a feature. "Written in C++" is a strange idea of a feature.