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How we learned to stop worrying and love campus surveillance

50 points by cdrnsf ago | 35 comments

fouc |next [-]

If you fail to read the article you might not realize it's being sarcastic.

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collyw |next |previous [-]

Has any of this surveillance bullshit reduced the number of incidents that occurred where they have been installed? I find it terrifying.

augment_me |root |parent [-]

No because its not the purpose. The purpose is to reduce risk by having accountability assignment to things like demonstrations that hurts the funding of the institution.

There was a bunch of anti-Israel stuff for example, which goes against the alignment of the university donors. In order to be able to assign accountability and prevent reoccurrence of such events, its useful to know who did these things so you can take necessary measures.

A bunch of cameras cost much much less than what stopped funding would cost the university, so it's the rational choice.

rembal |root |parent |next [-]

If the goal of the university is to be a fund vacuum cleaner it's rational. If the goal is to output free thinking, open minded graduates...

melbournesky |root |parent [-]

free thinking, open minded graduates are great as long as they don't question or criticize israel

lostlogin |root |parent |previous [-]

> it's the rational choice.

Time will tell. Long term, I think it’ll hurt them.

deadlinermusic |next |previous [-]

[dead]

xp84 |next |previous [-]

> have set into motion a plan to cancel our subscriptions to 700+ academic journals integral to our research and teaching.

ehh, this part is a weak take. All universities should cancel their journal subscriptions because journal publishers are parasites. Lots of other things are done by universities in collaboration with each other, without allowing some random for-profit company to collect rents. Publications should be one of them.

Grombobulous |previous [-]

I keep wondering if there’s some kind of positive correlation between prestige of an institution and level of immaturity and fragility of their employees.

Look, I’m not trying to be pro-surveillance state or whatever, but in what universe is a handful of cameras (less than 10 per building) in a publicly accessible space on a private university unusual or alarming?

I thought every university had this, but I guess I’m now learning that my university wasn’t prestigious enough to be exempted from reality.

My high school also had cameras. Isn’t that rather typical?

Keep in mind that pretty much 100% of schools this size have assaults take place every single year on school grounds, in a country where school shootings happen on a literal weekly basis.

Speaking of the supposed cost waste of these cameras: I would be surprised the university can get reasonably priced insurance without them.

AngryData |root |parent |next [-]

Your high school has responcibilities over minors and the video never gets seen except when an incident is reported. Do you think office spaces or libraries need face tracking and ai cataloging surveillance too?

To me that is no different than having someone follow me and everyone else around and writing a report on all my daily activities and submitting it to arbitrary self-appointed authority.

kelnos |root |parent |next |previous [-]

> Look, I’m not trying to be pro-surveillance state or whatever

Kinda sounds like you are, though.

> but in what universe is a handful of cameras (less than 10 per building)

The article notes 6-7 cameras per floor of one particular building. I'm not sure of the size of each floor of that particular building, so 6-7 cameras per floor may cover very little space, or it may cover a lot. That also says nothing about the coverage in other buildings. Larger buildings probably got more cameras.

Either way, often these sorts of things are set up in phases, with higher concentrations of cameras added later, after the system proves itself as useful.

> My high school also had cameras. Isn’t that rather typical?

There's a big difference between your bog-standard security camera that just records footage to a hard drive somewhere, and these cameras, that send live feeds to an AI company, where the video is presumably automatically analyzed and indexed to allow administrators to effortlessly track people's movements. The AI company may (now or in the future) offer real-time alerts of "suspicious activity", which as we all should know by now probably will have a significant false-positive rate. (But cops will treat alerts as gospel without doing any critical thinking.)

Grombobulous |root |parent [-]

There were a lot of things in the article I didn’t take at face value due to the obviously non-neutral point of view of the faculty.

For example, why would I assume that MIT is going to violate Massachusetts law and record audio? The cameras possessing microphone hardware is irrelevant if the software doesn’t turn on audio recording.

As you alluded to, 6-7 cameras per floor might be a lot or might not be. I would think it’s not that many: you’re probably getting two to cover stairwells, one for the elevator, one or two to cover a corridor. As soon as a corridor has a bend or runs a certain distance you’re getting another camera. We’re basically at 4 cameras minimum for the smallest multi-story building possible.

malicka |root |parent |next |previous [-]

> My high school also had cameras. Isn’t that rather typical?

Security cameras are incredibly typical. Having cameras that record _audio_ are not, and having cameras whose audio and video recordings are handed over to an AI company is _absolutely_ not typical.

browsingonly |root |parent |next [-]

Many cameras include microphones that the user has no intention of enabling. These are like that, since they're in a state where no-consent audio recording is illegal.

No audio recordings are made or handed over to anyone. Handing video over to a service provider to do things like weapons detection is not uncommon and not inherently a privacy problem. It's done in hospitals today.

collyw |root |parent |previous [-]

Is there any equivalent to spraying a camera with paint for audio?

itishappy |root |parent [-]

Might as well just smash them if you're already vandalizing. Spray painting is not a lesser offense here.

jolmg |root |parent |next |previous [-]

> in what universe is a handful of cameras (less than 10 per building) in a publicly accessible space on a private university unusual or alarming?

> My high school also had cameras. Isn’t that rather typical?

I don't think such a handful of cameras means the same thing today as it meant in e.g. the 00s. Lots of things have changed, the government, the politics, the culture, the technical possibilities.

xp84 |root |parent [-]

> Lots of things have changed, the government, the politics

This reads like you're saying "When [Good Party] were in charge, they would have always done the right thing, but now [Bad Party] is in charge so we need to handicap the government (perhaps only temporarily, until we get in charge again).

More compelling would be "Doesn't matter if it's a Bernie Sanders Socialists supermajority or a Trump MAGA government, the government shouldn't be allowed to have such-and-such power."

yosamino |root |parent |next |previous [-]

> Look, I’m not trying to be pro-surveillance state or whatever, but

... but why do you then go on making all pro-surveillance state arguments ?

Grombobulous |root |parent |next [-]

Is MIT a state?

malicka |root |parent |next [-]

When the data ends up inevitably in the state’s hands (almost certainly thanks to the AI company they’re contracting), it is 100% part of the surveillance state. Same reason telecom providers and Big Tech generally is part of the surveillance state; they’ll just hand over data, no questions asked, no warrants provided.

Grombobulous |root |parent [-]

Let’s say I run some video cameras on my property, and I decide that I’m going to mail the contents of those hard drives to my police department every day.

That’s not the surveillance state. That’s just me as a private entity snitching.

MIT is not a public university. It’s private property not much different than my house. You’re generally not supposed to be in most of their buildings unless you’re a student, faculty, or staff, just like you’re not supposed to be at my house unless I invite you over.

I will concede, though, that some lines are blurred. E.g., MIT has a police force.

The other point of my original comment is really just that it seems like the most prestigious colleges have faculty and students that complain about stuff that’s really typical at less prestigious universities.

kelnos |root |parent |previous [-]

MIT has a police force, so in the way that matters for this particular topic, yes, they are a state.

Aside from that, the lines are very blurred these days, as the state often ends up gaining regular, easy access to systems such as this.

(Regardless, it's a bit in bad faith to bring up surveillance-state scenarios, and then, when called on it, claim that it doesn't matter because it technically doesn't apply to the organization at hand. Even though it does in the ways that matter.)

Grombobulous |root |parent [-]

That’s not bad faith, it’s just basic logic. MIT isn’t a state and is just installing security cameras on its private property.

I do concede what you’re saying about its police force, and that’s a fair angle.

elliotec |root |parent |next |previous [-]

They don't, did you read it? It's clearly a satirical art project exposing the bullshit.

ajkjk |root |parent |previous [-]

Man I wish HN commenters could be bothered to even attempt to read each other charitably instead of this crap

yosamino |root |parent |next [-]

I did and then I asked a serious question.

These are arguments that are put forward in favor of mass-surveillance.

That is in direct contradiction to the claim "I’m not trying to be pro-surveillance state or whatever".

So I was wondering how that contradiction comes about and asked about it.

What would you suggest the charitable reading should be ?

ajkjk |root |parent [-]

You believe them. You believe the line "I'm not trying to be pro surveillance state", and then you take seriously the points they made which are completely reasonable things to ask, and you engage critically with them, and discuss how those points are compatible or incompatible with the overall stance. It is easy.

As a general rule: to engage charitably with someone you believe the things they say they believe, at face value and attempt to understand how they could come to believe those things.

kelnos |root |parent |next |previous [-]

Not sure there's a more charitable read on "I don't want to be pro-surveillance, but [bunch of reasons why I think this is fine and that surveillance should be and has been normalized]".

ajkjk |root |parent |next [-]

Yes there is. That's the point of the comment. They made their points seriously and people should engage with them seriously. Instead of this reductive tribalism: "oo you expressed doubt about whether this is really bad, you must be One Of Them". Well they actually doubt it. Now what? Does trying to shame them out of doubting it change their mind? Of course not. Either someone engages with their questions and convinces them to agree or they stay on the fence. Trying to shame people out of discussion by pointing out how they're acting like the Wrong People is anti-intellectual and disrespectful and ignorant. Not to mention completely ineffective.

elliotec |root |parent |previous [-]

whoosh

elliotec |root |parent |previous [-]

A charitable read of this article isn't even necessary to understand the point of this is the opposite of the poster you replied to. Basic discernment at most.

turtletontine |root |parent |next |previous [-]

did an AI surveillance startup write this? You gotta be kidding me

q3k |root |parent |next |previous [-]

> My high school also had cameras. Isn’t that rather typical?

What? Absolutely not! At least not in the countries in which I went to school.

0conclusive-dem |root |parent |previous [-]

I mean the correlation is money. Rich people outraged